No I haven’t read the scripts but perhaps it must be something to the tune of Jon having real feelings for D?
I keep saying this in all my posts that Jon sees D as the opposite of what Jamie sees D. It’s a classic dichotomy of what the audience sees her as – a saviour vs an antagonist. The purpose of season 7 was to further establish this dichotomy of views.
To be fair, D wants to be a good queen. She really brings out the conflict within human beings:-
1. Who you think you are
2. Who others think you are
3. Who you really are
1.Who you think you are
D thinks she’s a good queen and that she’s kind and compassionate and just. But that’s just what ‘she’ thinks about herself. This view is absolute since it stems from the ego of every human being. It reflects what everyone thinks about themselves. My opinions are right, my thinking is better, I cannot be wrong etc etc. Isn’t that why we have shipping wars in the fandom? The ability to spread hatered and chaos takes birth from this feeling of superiority, of the need to be right, of feeling more power or in other words – the mind being controlled by our ego and not by our conscience or intellect which is very well depicted by D, Cersei and even Tyrion in many instances.
2. Who others think you are.
In all our lives – we may have people who like us and people who don’t. Well in D’s case, it’s the same – except in a far more radical manner. There are people who love her, are loyal to her and will give their lives for her. The other half sees her as a tyrant, a foreign invader who knows nothing about their land and who rules purely by fear.
So who’s right?
Both are!
Because…. the same battle is waging within her. She’s torn between doing the right thing until Cersei gives her a fake assurance. The war inside her is reflected outside too where on one hand she appears as a villain to Jamie and on the other she appears as a saviour to Jon.
3. Who you really are.
This is what it boils down to in the end. Every time one is faced with a difficult situation, a dilemma – who you really are will always come out despite what you think about yourself or what others think about you.
Isn’t this what Jon hopes for too? That his people will see her for what she really is??
I’ve always thought that D’s whole character arc has been about discovering an answer to these three questions. It is the true conflict of the human heart.
Jon expects that his people will see her in the same light as he sees her but this is game of thrones for crying out loud! His hopes are bound to be crushed and perhaps in a way that he himself will begin to see her for what she really is.
I always thought ‘that’ was the whole point of why they inserted that line in there.
So who is D, really?
Well, we’re going to find out in a few months.
I’ve always maintained that Jon and Sansa have not really examined the depth of their feelings for each other.
They’re half-siblings. So they have a messy and complicated relationship since they were never close as children. At least that’s what they think. They don’t know that they’re cousins. Any over possessiveness is dismissed as familial love – in their heads but clearly not for the audiences that have seen their relationship grow.
Like my dear friend who is a non-shipper said, “Something about their relationship always feels odd and tensed. I don’t understand why they would spend so much time on screen developing the nuances of such a relationship unless there was a different story to tell.”
I mean if you think about it, a jon-d relationship was developed in just 4 and a half episodes. And 85% of the audience thinks that they’ll marry and have kids and rule the seven kingdoms. See, it was that easy for the showmakers to portray a romance between two people who have never met each other – in 4 and ½ episodes.
Also for those who were paying attention – enough seeds for discord, misalignment of values, contrasting personality types and beliefs were laid between Jon and D in those very same 4 or five episodes.
So, it doesn’t matter what Jon thought in season 7, lol ( He thinks he’s Ned Stark’s bastard, remember?) it only matters what he’ll realise in season 8.
If you think he’ll look past D’s proclivity to incinerate, his actual relationship with her, her obvious craving for power – that’s your opinion.
I could be wrong but I don’t think this story was ever about two Targaryens riding into the sunset on their dragons and children.
In Bryan Cogman’s words, in the end, it all boils down to families – one family- the Starks !
occupyvenus: Above, you see the official Stark family tree as published in “The World of Ice and Fire” in October 2014 and below you find a draft of it that found it’s way on the internet in May 2014 to promote said book (though it is of course near impossible to tell when exactly it was […]
The scene in S7/E1 where Jon and Sansa walk & talk in the aftermath of the Alys Karstark – Ned Umber pardoning/re-affirmation of faith with House Stark is one of the most grossly misinterpreted scenes that I feel like it’s worth an entire post about it.
There exists a fairly obvious disconnect with the Jonsa fandom and the anti and non-Jonsa (yes, you can be indifferent about Jonsa, it’s really ok) folks about why exactly we who think Jonsa is the most likely and satisfying end pairing to rule Westeros could see this scene as a treasure trove of foreshadowing and subtext. Here goes my deep dive…
First, the theme of this entire post…
Subtext means that the spoken words have two different meanings. There’s the literal meaning of the text – then the subtext is a layer of meaning buried underneath. Essentially, subtext means that what you are hearing isn’t what the scene is actually about. Easy, right? Let’s continue.
Jon says the words, “you undermine me” – and so in 1000000 articles and 1000000000 videos and 100000000000000 comments on reddit/tumblr/twitter/etc. we’ve heard that Sansa undermines Jon here.
And yet this is disproved by the actual content of the scene and by the 3rd most important person that makes the show, Bryan Cogman. (x)
It’s plainly obvious that Jon is particularly hurt by Sansa’s objections to his decision in the previous scene and he takes that as her attacking his position and authority.
But why does he take it that way?
Let me introduce a throwback quote that I think is the best explanation why Jon reacts so extremely to Sansa’s objection;
“They came because of you” – he knows Sansa was right in the lead up to the BotB and now he’s the king. She tried to tell him to delay the battle. He didn’t. This forced her hand in seeking LF’s help. He almost died. He would have lost the battle had Sansa not done what she did.
What do I see in Jon? Guilt. Self-doubt. Confusion. He has no idea how this is supposed to work with Sansa. Remember, the lords crowned him after this scene. He affirmed that Sansa was the reason they even won the battle and then he receives all the praise for the victory.
This scene is about Jon’s insecurity and need of Sansa’s support and about Sansa’s recognition that she needs to balance her need for validation with making Jon feel supported.
Why do I think this? The entire rest of the scene…
Sansa doesn’t quite see Jon’s insecurity at this point. She still just wants to be heard. And the last scene didn’t help with that too much. I don’t believe she’s quite put together how insecure Jon is about himself and his abilities.
Sansa was in the middle of telling Jon that he needs to get better at listening to people but she unintentionally triggered his insecurities at the mention of Joffrey. Again, Jon isn’t saying Sansa can’t question his authority in the lead up to this – he was upset because he felt like Sansa’s criticisms make him seem small to the other lords because he feels small.
The really interesting part is Jon’s response to this.
Remember, he doesn’t really believe he deserves to rule. He feels indebted to Sansa for winning the battle. He feels guilty that he’s been thrust in authority over her. Jon’s fear at this point is being a shitty king. And so this fear is what triggers his response. To her credit – Sansa notices Jon’s emotional reaction very very quickly.
Her entire demeanor changes. She softens here. It’s the moment where she really can see through Jon, I believe. He needs supported because he’s so unsure of himself. It’s no wonder that Jon struggles with his confidence. He’s grown up in Robb’s shadow and Catelyn’s ire. He joined the Night’s Watch and found out it wasn’t at all what he thought it would be…then he ascended the ranks anyway and was murdered. Then, in trying to take back WF with Sansa, he didn’t listen to her and almost lost everything because of it.
I think it’s key that Jon didn’t lash out in anger at the comparison. He didn’t accuse Sansa of being wrong. He knows he’s not Joffrey. He’s dead afraid that he’s been such a shit ruler that he now has no idea what Sansa thinks of him.
His psyche is so fragile. And you can see with almost exact precision the moment that Sansa softens and adjusts for him. He doesn’t even have to ask “do you think I’m Joffrey?” for Sansa to know what’s happening.
And the pause from Sansa is telling, too.
Perhaps for a moment she did realize that she had taken her frustrations with the lords out on Jon. They didn’t recognize her importance but Jon has in multiple ways since they reunited and most definitely since they won the battle.
To me, her looks convey a sense of clarity. “Maybe I did get screwed a bit, but Jon is the best person I’ve ever been able to spend time with since I left Winterfell. He’s been the one to validate me, I need to do the same for him.”
It’s really emotional for her too. We need to realize as viewers that Sansa’s need for validation is as important as Jon’s need for support. Sansa’s feelings about the aftermath of the BotB aren’t unfair on the whole. Jon affirmed her status as Lady of Winterfell and gave her the lord’s chambers (a point that came up again in S7 with Arya, and I don’t think it’s for nothing). Jon has tried to validate Sansa while feeling guilt that others haven’t quite done the same.
This is really the “moment” for me that Sansa put all of that resentment completely behind her and saw the bigger picture. Jon needs her. That’s her realization. It’s not about him wanting to rule as the lone wolf – and it’s not about him having stubborn arrogance. It’s about his fragility.
This tone shift completely holds up the rest of the way…
Sansa now gets it. She’s shown hints of unlocking the Jon Snow Puzzle previously with her various forms of validation for Jon as a worthy Stark. But this is like Sansa gazing right into Jon’s soul. She gets him from this moment on.
Jon needs her and he’s horribly insecure about himself.
So what does she say next?
Folks, this is like the best ointment for Jon’s soul. He needed to know this. Jon is still not assured of himself so of course he denies that he’s a good ruler; but that’s the single best thing for Jon to hear in this moment. Now, I think the rest of the scene portrays Jon as still frustratingly stuck in this self-doubt – but the tonal shift of Sansa recognizing that Jon needs her support is the single best way to interpret her demeanor when the scene started so contentiously.
Look how the boy reacts after she reassures him.
“You are.” Tell me that Jon in this moment isn’t displaying a stunningly deep combination of despair, self-doubt, hopefulness, and confusion all in one. Sansa is something more to him than anyone could have ever predicted. Look at this. She’s the only one that’s rightfully identifying his emotional needs, I should also add. Sam, Davos, the northern lords, they all see this strong determined skillful warrior and noble guy. Sam, for all his intelligence, has still failed to really see Jon’s weaknesses because he really idolizes Jon. Sansa is the only one that really sees underneath Jon’s skin and into his heart.
He IS a strong determined skillful warrior with a noble heart. But he’s also tired of fighting, as only Sansa has been told. He’s also ashamed for his stubbornly resisting Sansa’s advice in the lead up to the BotB. He’s also deeply doubtful of even being placed into a situation where he’s viewed as the head of House Stark. She sees these things and spoken to him about these things when no one else has. Sansa is the most important person to Jon emotionally by a mile.
It also makes Jon’s utter inability to fully communicate with Sansa incredibly understandable.
What is she to me? A sister? A half-sister? A stranger? I never had a bond with her before. Now she’s my closest confidant. Is that normal? She’s identifying my emotional needs. She hears me express my deepest feelings of self-doubt. But is she supposed to be this person for me? Am I even a member of House Stark? How can she think this much of me when I didn’t listen to her? We would have lost without her. I need her – but does she really need me.
Watch Jon’s behavior with Sansa in the first two episodes of the season and tell me this stuff doesn’t track well.
You know what happens when you’re not clear-minded? When you’re conflicted? You hang on certain details in a conversation and keep harping on them over and over again because your mind is going a million miles an hour and you’re trying to anchor it.
Jon goes back to the U word. And it makes no sense, really. Trying to protect someone is good. Trying to undermine someone is bad. If Sansa stopped trying to “undermine” Jon, then he would stop trying to protect her? Does that also mean he will only protect her so long as she continues to try to undermine him? It’s kind of nonsense but I think it’s intentionally showing that Jon simply has no confidence in himself and he needs yanked back by Sansa over and over again.
And here she literally yanks him back form this self-destructive mindset.
Look, when I said earlier that Sansa gets Jon, I meant it. She is SO GOOD at jogging his mind back to the important things that need to be talked about.
She knows how to get him snapped back when he’s practicing avoidance.
“He hardly talks” is what Ygritte said. Dany so often was met with uncomfortable silences and non-answers from Jon when she wanted to know something that he wasn’t willing to discuss. It’s a defense mechanism for Jon. His silence, his quips, his brooding. It’s all to avoid talking about the types of things that make him feel small and unworthy.
And I think the last exchange is the most important. Because Jon really has said to this point “I’m worried I’m not good enough for this job.” Internally he knows he needs Sansa but he just doesn’t want to admit as she is the biggest source of confusion and self-doubt Jon has at this point.
On its face, this statement is weird. Why would he say it like this? He’s affirmed her place. He’s said they need to trust each other. He told her she was the reason they won the BotB. What’s making him so reluctant to fully rely on Sansa? He just had a near meltdown because she compared him to Joffrey. Then he was soothed when she expressed otherwise and affirmed for him that he’s a good ruler. S6, at it’s conclusion was the Season Sansa Was Right and Jon felt horribly guilty for not listening to her.
So again, on the surface, his words fly in the face of that. OF COURSE he should listen to her. She’s proven it over and over again – and it’s something Jon has outright acknowledged. So why in the heck is he struggling so much with this?
His last look here says it all.
Jon is so utterly confused, lacking in confidence, shamed, guilty, and mother fucking love sick that his entire existence is twisted and folded like a Sansa-shaped origami.
Right here, I think, is the moment we get to see why Jon keeps desperately trying to walk away from Sansa and has trouble communicating with her. He is losing himself in her and he has got no idea what to do with that because he does NOT feel like he should be seeing her this way.
beyondmysky: if you still believe that this was JUST a setting between siblings, you have not been paying attention the second gif is plain heart eyes Source: beyondmysky
Kate's FanCave 